Discussion in 'E36 M3 (1991-1999) and E30 M3 (1986-1990)' started by firesafety, Mar 6, 2018.
the closer the better but willing to travel.
What are your needs?
i would like to get it on the dyno and get the set up which it is running now optimized ( i believe it is stock ) . And then look at options to increase the power, possibly intake, cams etc.
makes no sense.
If you want to tune the engine, tune it and then map it.
for mapping go to wayne schofield at chipwizards
Beat me to it literally word for word.
why does it make no sense - a good mapper can find loads of power from a standard engine. Why chuck money at something. i would like advice from a reputable tuner.
i had a standard E46 M3 and got it mapped and we found an extra 20 bhp with a few tweaks.
a good tuner would want to see how the engine is running first, check timing, individual cylinder compression and co readings etc etc. Why would you chuck loads at money at an engine that may or may not have an issue.
In my experience tuning the s50b32 beyond 350bhp is a mugs game. Mild cams, an air box and a map should get you close to 350bhp but all you are really doing is moving the power further up the rev range so unless you're going to drive everywhere on song you will struggle to notice the difference.....
A good air box is a nice mod, should give you 15bhp (with a good map) and makes your engine sound a whole lot better. Personally I wouldn't go any further than that for road use and if you want a ton of power buy an s54.
You don't need a tuner to give your engine a health check.
S50's were pretty much on the edge of their capability from the factory. The s54 is way more tuneable than the s50 which is why you saw good results.
thanks for this - the car is only a track toy / weekend car. Do you have any recommendations for the tuning. My thoughts were geoff steel airbox and possibly cams?
So check the engine is in good order, then tune it then map it.
You can check the condition of the engine yourself with basic tools, or if yo unwanted just a power run for £40.
You will gain very little other than a cost tying to map the s50b32 and being that a good mapping session will be 500, you would be better off spending that elsewhere. for example thats 70% of the cost of a pair of catcams
Obviously you can do what you like, but i do run and have built a tuned s50.
I ran a home brew airbox (Chinese ebay box with standard trumpets glassed in) and schrick 284 cams for years on track with no issues. The engine was bulletproof and it revved out so cleanly meaning the setup was perfect for hard track work.
That setup made 344bhp iirc with a generic map from Wayne at chipwizzards.
With a decent airbox and a live map it may have even got close to 360bhp.
Airbox wise, the Geoff steel one looks ok and so does the Mac Moteren....
Any recomendations for live mapping?
Same as above. Chipwizzards is your man.
He maps most clubman BMW race cars and even does work for Porsche uk on some classic cars.
what cams would you recommend - as stated it is not a daily, just a track toy so lumpy idle etc no problem. would this mean doing away with vanos? any help greatly appreciated.
The MSS50 is a bit of a black box.
There is an international reverse engineering project going (slowly). One of its wizzards explained to me that no tuner has a full read of this DME. So while maps are being tweaked, no one knows 100% what it does.
It even reached the original guy that worked for BMW at the time who wanted to help, but then all of a sudden went up in smoke. Seems BMW got aware of it and wasn’t too amused.
Anything out there is good at best, not the best.
Comes down to catcams or schrick.
catcams are split profile and a little more aggressive, and cheaper.
either will work pretty well, you cant go very large without going shim under bucket which is a nightmare for servicing.
That's not true and all sounds like a bit of folklore to me. I have a full read of the dme for a start, anyone who physically removes the flash can do so. I expect what you mean is that no DAMOS/A2L exists. But plenty of people have done some really good decompilation work on this ecu, and there are lots of people with an excellent understanding of the mss50. And on the no-one being 100% on what they're doing - in many cases simply by datalogging the ECU to read out the values you can see the changes made - for example if I alter the inlet vanos angle at 5k rpm to be 10 degrees more advanced on full load, I can datalog and see my change reflected on the values the DME returns. With the help of a rolling road, I can see what impact that has on output.
What is true is lots (not all, I'm sure) of commercially available maps are rubbish and there's lots of misinformation out there. To give the commonly quoted example, most chips alter the ABS sensor calibration to fool the speed governer rather than actually changing the vmax value. This will in turn bugger up all of the gear recognition parameters which are used for various calculations on acceleration enrichment and other things. Or simply altering the knock thresholds to allow more advance.
I've found the standard flash is reasonably well optimised, a few tweaks and running a bit more advance on the inl vanos (more like the s54) works well. There are lots of other cool things besides performance altering things I've done to mine such as:
-running the Z3M/GrpN MSS50.1 4.14 software instead of 3.18 found on the e36. I've tweaked the Z3M flash to have the correct gear parameter values etc (the z3m has a 5 speed box)
-altering the program to allow a proper 16x12 sized Alpha-N map
-base fuelling calculations tweaked to suit the volvo EV6 injectors I run
-open loop behaviour altered
-air pump program switched off and DTC removed
-fuel cut on overrun removed
-changed rev limit
-speed limiter removed
-gear parameters set for my 3.62 diff
Still doesn't make sense on a track car. I sold my 69k s50 and bought a 62k s54 for £200 pound less than what I got for mine.
Already got more power and £200 in my pocket.
Now with a proper motorsport style airbox (not a csl style box) and a map and you're not far from 400bhp with the s54 and that will cost the same give or take a pound.
Edit. Sorry figures are wrong. I got the e46 gearbox in that deal too. So I'm actually £800 up after selling mine and going s54.
Air boxes seem to make a hell of a difference on these engines. As above some guys running s54s seem to make 400bhp plus with cams and a GTR style airbox with ‘snorkel’ on the front. Trouble is you have to run a half size double width radiator upfront which is a bit of work.
Don’t forget these s50 and s54 engines make 100bhp per litre out of the factory which is pretty good going in the first place
If the mapping of the bmw Ecu was the issue a lot more people would running standalone.
Tim925, maybe I explained it incorrectly, it’s a bit voodoo to me.
I do know they managed to to a full read/write through the diagnostics connector, with DME in place.