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Old 14th February 2018, 11:23 AM   #21
Adamantium
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Totally agree on the Martyn and Martin front.

As for Karbonius being a cheap knock off, personally I prefer it to the Evolve offering on the design front. It is laser scanned from the OEM box.

I am in the position of owning the OEM box and have no issue switching the the Karbonius.

I want to retain the flap because I want the original functionality.

The Evolve set up and the full Karbonius set up are about the same price, that said, I'm not sure that the evolve set up at £3k is not alpha N.

If it is, there's no way I would pay the same amount compared with a MAP equipped karbonius set up.
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Old 14th February 2018, 11:29 AM   #22
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Geoff Steel Airbox with Map sensor re map by Martyn is tried and tested ( far Cheaper than carboniferous/OEM box but good quality build and CSL sound with ~360BHP
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Old 14th February 2018, 11:41 AM   #23
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Erm, geoff steel is £100 less than Karbonius.

all other conversion prices are the same.
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Old 14th February 2018, 12:17 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamantium View Post
snorkel is optional.

This can be done by an alpha N system which is a label for the way the engine calculates fuelling based on throttle position and engine speed - it is a poor system and I would never run this.

the proper way of doing it is to install a map sensor which measures air pressure in the inlet manifold and run what is known as a speed density map.
Totally agree that a system using a map sensor is the way to go. However, your system IS Alpha-N. The CSL is Alpha-N with a map correction table on top. It is incredibly hard to use speed density with ITB's due to the massively fluctuating pressure within the airbox or near a throttle body. The speed density systems on ITB's that i've seen try to use a map sensor per throttle body and average the output to achieve load.

Speed density use map voltage as the main load reference, alpha-n uses TPS voltage. From everything that I have read over the last few years the CSL uses TPS as its main load input - however I've not seen any real csl tables etc.

I'm really interested in this as I would much prefer to use speed density with the stock ecu on a forced induction project.
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Old 14th February 2018, 12:50 PM   #25
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Do you know for sure that the pressure in a very open large airbox such as this design, is massively fluctuating?

especially one designed solely for this purpose.

Your theory makes complete sense, but I wonder if in the case of the OEM CSL, if the MAP correction table makes sufficient difference for it to be almost as good as a true speed density set up.

I only say this having driven an Alpha N set up and also the stock CSL set up and finding the difference to be compelling enough to warrant adding the MAP sensor. I do admit it could have been a function of very poor mapping of the Alpha N set up.

Last edited by Adamantium; 14th February 2018 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 14th February 2018, 01:21 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamantium View Post
Do you know for sure that the pressure in a very open large airbox such as this design, is massively fluctuating?

especially one designed solely for this purpose.

Your theory makes makes complete sense, but I wonder if in the case of the OEM CSL, if the MAP correction table makes sufficient difference for it to be almost as good as a true speed density set up.

I only say this having driven an Alpha N set up and also the stock CSL set up and found the difference to be compelling enough to warrant adding the MAP sensor. I do admit it could have been a function of very poor mapping of the Alpha N set up.
No I cannot say categorically that this is the case with the CSL intake as I have never mapped one. However I do have a lot of dyno time with other cars + throttle bodies + lots of time going mad trying to make speed density work well with itb's + turbo.

Depending on how and to what extent they use the map correction table then I can't see why it wouldn't be as good as true speed density under most conditions, the map plus the lambda should be more than capable.

Either way - I would do exactly as you have done and insist on stock csl type install with map sensor!
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Old 14th February 2018, 01:21 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ADL View Post
Youíre looking at this all wrong. Youíre in the priveledged position to have people recommending someone on first name terms who will fit and tune this to perfection. The karb box from Martin at ms motorsport (our site sponsor) is a work of god dam art. Martyn from ecuworx works with evolve to develop maps and even supercharger I believe. He literally makes the tool and writes the software that other Ďtunersí use. He works with evolve as far as Iím aware to remotely flash their map via the tool he made. Do some research. Everyone is trying to help you. People are spending 20% of the entire value of their car in some case in the karb box and Martynís map and between Martyn from ecuworx, Martin from ms motorsport and karbobius I bet you canít find a single bad review anywhere from anyone. You want the best this is the route to go. they are both lovely helpful people. I drove 8 hour round trip to see
Martyn!
ahh..
i apologise - i was blissfully ignorant as to Martyn's credentials and reputation..
makes sense now
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Old 14th February 2018, 01:27 PM   #28
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i need to get in touch with him and get the low-down
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Old 14th February 2018, 01:38 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by E46CoupeM3 View Post
^ Lots of people with genuine CSLs and working flaps remove the flap to get the noise 24/7

So if you can get an airbox and IAT for £1000-£1200 and a remap from Martyn (as my mate did and Alpha-N ran fine) anything else is wasted effort. You coudld be done under £1500.

That puts the £3K into perspective. Work out how long it takes to earn the Extra £1500 and most people othan have time, and the fun of doing it lol

Or put it another way, flap is CSL wannabe, noise all the time is efficient (I am joking)
please let me know where i can get an airbox and IAT for £1000-£1200?
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Old 14th February 2018, 01:41 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 64e 3m wmb View Post
£1500.00 box
£400.00 snorkel , working flap oem with oem wiring + plugs
£110 oem filter
£80 oem pipe work
£600 for maping and fitting
360 BHP at 7890rpm on the rollers after, you can do it cheaper but I wanted the oem look and having had a CSL it looks know different
Sounds about right, I also wanted working flap like my csl.

Both geoff steel and karbonius boxes sound superb.

Dry by:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcTEzPOYqWQ
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