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Old 10th August 2018, 12:48 PM   #81
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I don't think we will. Anyone who has fitted aftermarket shells will be someone who has read about wear and will therefore be extra careful in warming their motor up. Also unlikely they will own their car for the next 50000+ miles so they will never be subject to the same treatment from the temporary non enthusianst owners.

If you want to test your theory you can rag your car for the next 20000 miles with minimal warm up time and pull the bearings for us all to marvel at.

I wouldn't be too confident though considering the guy that fitted the BE bearings in his track car and did the build thread had engine failure on his 30000 mile motor in under a year. The ACL bearings are made by guys who make shells for Chevy and Ford V8 drag cars intended to do sub 12 seconds of work at a time with regular rebuilds. If anything BMW have done the most physical testing and are the only ones who can guarantee the part lasts the life of the vehicle with the intended use
100% agree with this.... BMW would have done multiple durability cycles with the S65 and a thorough DV sign off up to and beyond a standard vehicle life cycle (likely 150k miles), these cycles would be harder and more demanding on the engine and vehicle components than most cars are subjected to, they would have likely not been ragged from cold every time they started a shift due to following a strict test plan. IMO the shell failures are down to abuse on a regular basis....... I guess that comes back to the earlier point on a note of guidance to educate people how to treat the car.

The only way to know about the aftermarket shells is to run the same durability cyccle on these that BMW ran on the OEM shells..... who's going to volunteer the $1M to do that test, let alone do it ten times over.... unlikely the aftermarket shell manufacturers have or will.
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Old 10th August 2018, 01:34 PM   #82
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100% agree with this.... BMW would have done multiple durability cycles with the S65 and a thorough DV sign off up to and beyond a standard vehicle life cycle (likely 150k miles), these cycles would be harder and more demanding on the engine and vehicle components than most cars are subjected to, they would have likely not been ragged from cold every time they started a shift due to following a strict test plan. IMO the shell failures are down to abuse on a regular basis....... I guess that comes back to the earlier point on a note of guidance to educate people how to treat the car.

The only way to know about the aftermarket shells is to run the same durability cyccle on these that BMW ran on the OEM shells..... who's going to volunteer the $1M to do that test, let alone do it ten times over.... unlikely the aftermarket shell manufacturers have or will.
Funny youíve mentioned this peterD Iíve gone for acl bearings with oem nuts as itís been tested by mr vanos using motul 300v 10/40 this is been tested on track days as well as roads after one year he removed the acl bearings to inspect them and guess what there was no sign of wear. This was used as daily car as well as track car warmed up properly and intrim oil changes in between service oil changes.
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Old 10th August 2018, 01:53 PM   #83
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Funny youíve mentioned this peterD Iíve gone for acl bearings with oem nuts as itís been tested by mr vanos using motul 300v 10/40 this is been tested on track days as well as roads after one year he removed the acl bearings to inspect them and guess what there was no sign of wear. This was used as daily car as well as track car warmed up properly and intrim oil changes in between service oil changes.
So one vehicle? Over one year? So likely 10k miles.

BMW would have done millions of miles in dozens of vehicles. Yet you will still go against their choice of bearing?

If an alternate bearing was subject to the same conditions it could well perform worse? Wouldn't you rather choose the known quantity?
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Old 10th August 2018, 01:55 PM   #84
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Funny youíve mentioned this peterD Iíve gone for acl bearings with oem nuts as itís been tested by mr vanos using motul 300v 10/40 this is been tested on track days as well as roads after one year he removed the acl bearings to inspect them and guess what there was no sign of wear. This was used as daily car as well as track car warmed up properly and intrim oil changes in between service oil changes.
That's interesting to know Mike. However, this is not good practice for comparing data. The test would have to be 'apples for apples' as we say to compare the data robustly. What we don't have is the shells from BMW's test vehicles and so we can never ever know the answer.... maybe they had no wear after a full durability cycle? Maybe Mr Vanos's shells destroy themselves if ragged from cold only once.... maybe Mr Vanos skewed the results to ensure business as he does not have to worry about a mass recall like BMW do (controversial and I'm not saying he did but it is a possibility).... just too many variables to use this as reliable data.
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Old 10th August 2018, 02:10 PM   #85
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If you want to test your theory you can rag your car for the next 20000 miles with minimal warm up time and pull the bearings for us all to marvel at.
Hahaha, no thank you!

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I wouldn't be too confident though considering the guy that fitted the BE bearings in his track car and did the build thread had engine failure on his 30000 mile motor in under a year.
You keep mentioning this mate, not sure who you mean? SYT is the only one I've seen with a sized (BE populated) track car, but this has from what he seen so far not involved the rod shells but rather glogged exhausts.

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The ACL bearings are made by guys who make shells for Chevy and Ford V8 drag cars intended to do sub 12 seconds of work at a time with regular rebuilds. If anything BMW have done the most physical testing and are the only ones who can guarantee the part lasts the life of the vehicle with the intended use
Not fair with ACL mate. They've been around since Jesus ran i short pants, although with a short break some years ago, and yes producing race shells but piles for standard cars as well. They have their own fab, can't imagen they could survive on small volume racing only even if they wanted to.
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Old 10th August 2018, 03:27 PM   #86
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So one vehicle? Over one year? So likely 10k miles.

BMW would have done millions of miles in dozens of vehicles. Yet you will still go against their choice of bearing?

If an alternate bearing was subject to the same conditions it could well perform worse? Wouldn't you rather choose the known quantity?
My car may have fbmw service history but how do I know if previous owners didnít have mechanical simpathy? You donít? thatís why I changed mine for piece of mind as Iím keeping it. Now if I choose acl bearings thatís been tested by someone who rebuilds these for living my trust and guarantee is with him not yours Alex. My bearings was warn as expected and replaced so Iím glad I did make the right choice Iím not fan of lab oil tests I rather just get the job done Once
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Old 10th August 2018, 04:29 PM   #87
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Hahaha, no thank you!



You keep mentioning this mate, not sure who you mean? SYT is the only one I've seen with a sized (BE populated) track car, but this has from what he seen so far not involved the rod shells but rather glogged exhausts.
I'm pretty sure it was you who posted the link https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1333638

Quote:
Special hardware used
BW street/track (Group N) engine mounts. If yours is a street car, I suggest replacing them with OEM items
BE Bearings. I donít understand why anyone would use something else
BE-ARP bolts. Again, these should be the default choice for everyone. Besides being the best bolts for these engines, you do not want to be angle torqueing stuff in this tight a space. Somewhere, someone is thinking Ď$500 is a lot for boltsí. Well good luck with that...
Plastigauge. You need the green one. You can buy some at
Then scroll down to the end of the post:


Quote:
Update 6/27/2018

Apparently we have had a failure due to improper installation.
Thats despite photographing and logging every step on installation with the instructions on how to do so in a "world class diy thread".

The motor had 33k to correct myself earlier. The shells he pulled had nothing wrong with them same as the second car they pulled shells from despite being told "these are not ok".
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Old 10th August 2018, 04:34 PM   #88
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My car may have fbmw service history but how do I know if previous owners didnít have mechanical simpathy? You donít? thatís why I changed mine for piece of mind as Iím keeping it.
I agree with you completely.

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Now if I choose acl bearings thatís been tested by someone who rebuilds these for living my trust and guarantee is with him not yours Alex.
Put your trust in BMW! After all you trusted them to your servicing all this time. They designed a high performance car which when treated right can do more than 150k. If you replace with OEM bearings, and then treat the car with mechanical sympathy then it stands to reason it will be 100k miles before they might need checking again.

It's nothing against Mr VANOS or any other small company. But they just don't have the resources to develop an engine like a global automotive OEM does like BMW. OEM's don't always get it right, but you are choosing to replace a known for an unknown, which hasn't gone through the same level of validation. This isn't my opinion, it is a certainty. To second guess their choice just isn't science. Science and engineering is how your car has been developed by some of the best engineers in the world.

At the end of the day, its your car. But I hope anyone on the fence who reads this would just stick with the OEM. It's exactly like the oil argument that everyone has been through - The risks far outweigh the rewards.

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My bearings was warn as expected and replaced so Iím glad I did make the right choice Iím not fan of lab oil tests I rather just get the job done Once
If a bearing is worn, replace it; absolutely. Lab tests are a good indicator, but not a definitive measure so I can see why you might go straight to replacement.
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Old 10th August 2018, 04:48 PM   #89
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https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1337998

This extensive testing which show that oem bearings are flawed in their oil flow characteristics but BE bearings are better...

The results they use to draw that conclusion is the oil flow reading from a sensor placed in the line between the oil filter housing and oil cooler. It doesnt take an engineer to figure out that if the only variable was the shells and the oil grade, temps, rpm was common between tests yet the oil flow in the same pipe was different...and this is down to the 0.000x inch clearance difference between the crank and shells

Someone genuinely needs to explain that one to me because it does not compute
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Old 10th August 2018, 05:11 PM   #90
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I'm pretty sure it was you who posted the link https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1333638

Then scroll down to the end of the post:

Thats despite photographing and logging every step on installation with the instructions on how to do so in a "world class diy thread".

The motor had 33k to correct myself earlier. The shells he pulled had nothing wrong with them same as the second car they pulled shells from despite being told "these are not ok".
It is Friday but you drunk already mate? The DIY doesn't include a shell failure or even a 27/6 post. Believe I've seen a post on just that i.e. wrongly installed bearings but can't remember what supplier. Doesn't really matter in a case like that. Cheers.
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Old 10th August 2018, 05:18 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Raif View Post
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1337998

This extensive testing which show that oem bearings are flawed in their oil flow characteristics but BE bearings are better...

The results they use to draw that conclusion is the oil flow reading from a sensor placed in the line between the oil filter housing and oil cooler. It doesnt take an engineer to figure out that if the only variable was the shells and the oil grade, temps, rpm was common between tests yet the oil flow in the same pipe was different...and this is down to the 0.000x inch clearance difference between the crank and shells

Someone genuinely needs to explain that one to me because it does not compute
You are making me curious on your experience here. You certainly seem to have quite a bit. No being ironical here mate, just curious.
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Old 10th August 2018, 05:24 PM   #92
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It is Friday but you drunk already mate? The DIY doesn't include a shell failure or even a 27/6 post. Believe I've seen a post on just that i.e. wrongly installed bearings but can't remember what supplier. Doesn't really matter in a case like that. Cheers.
If you scroll to the end of the first post there is update dated 27/6 which explains they had bearing failure. He edited the first post rather than a new post.
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Old 10th August 2018, 05:44 PM   #93
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If you scroll to the end of the first post there is update dated 27/6 which explains they had bearing failure. He edited the first post rather than a new post.
Well thats another engine doesn't have anything to do with his machinery mate. SYT' engine has since sized but again as it seems due to completely different reasons.
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Old 10th August 2018, 05:47 PM   #94
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Well thats another engine doesn't have anything to do with his machinery mate. SYT' engine has since sized but again as it seems due to completely different reasons.
I'm not weighing in on your discussion with Raif. I'm just stating where the post was.
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Old 10th August 2018, 06:58 PM   #95
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Well thats another engine doesn't have anything to do with his machinery mate. SYT' engine has since sized but again as it seems due to completely different reasons.
As Alex pointed out itís an edit to the first post regarding the bearing changed on that engine. On 26th of June 2018 he has added a note to the post to say the engine has now ďfailedĒ. The engine with the BE bearings.

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You are making me curious on your experience here. You certainly seem to have quite a bit. No being ironical here mate, just curious.
Iíve worked for 2 OEMs one Japanese and one European and also a component /system supplier. Iím a development engineer but have not worked on base engine design, only in driveline components, external engine components and some hybrid systems. In my old job I did get on well with an old guy who for the last 20 years worked on engine tear down analysis post durability testing and used to bombard him with questions daily mainly because of my interest in the S65 issues. He was someone whoís experience in internal engine component design and wear could not be questioned. Most of what I know about the topic and oil selection/properties is just knowledge that came out of his mouth
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Old 10th August 2018, 08:54 PM   #96
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Has anyone got the real application asap? When browsing the web bmw portal etk using a gts vin it lists the same part number but with the note pop-up as follows. (Although the part is then displayed with usual 703 and whatever waa the other shell ending)

Code:
S9MRA M Sport manufacture
.
Special models with the S9MRA are shown
in
the EPC.
.
EXCEPTIONS:
E90 M3CRT / E92 M3GTS!
Parts differing from the standard
version of the
M3 are - N O T - shown in the EPC.
.
These parts and further information
can be found in the ASAP at:
.
Parts and Accessories > M GmbH > Sport
Manufaktur

Last edited by crypticc; 10th August 2018 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 11th August 2018, 11:50 AM   #97
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As Alex pointed out itís an edit to the first post regarding the bearing changed on that engine. On 26th of June 2018 he has added a note to the post to say the engine has now ďfailedĒ. The engine with the BE bearings.



Iíve worked for 2 OEMs one Japanese and one European and also a component /system supplier. Iím a development engineer but have not worked on base engine design, only in driveline components, external engine components and some hybrid systems. In my old job I did get on well with an old guy who for the last 20 years worked on engine tear down analysis post durability testing and used to bombard him with questions daily mainly because of my interest in the S65 issues. He was someone whoís experience in internal engine component design and wear could not be questioned. Most of what I know about the topic and oil selection/properties is just knowledge that came out of his mouth
Ah, that was a note made by SYT in his DIY as another piece of friendly advice, not his engine though.

Cheers for the input. So makes you yet another one in the bunch with automotive experience, which is why the forums are so interesting to follow! Heading up an (electronics) engineering company myself so know [email protected] all about mechanics and engines. Fortunately still able to read, and again certainly appreciate shop and engine (hands on S65) peoples actual experiences. Seems we have a different view on this which obviously is all fine.

Cheers
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Old 11th August 2018, 03:37 PM   #98
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So whats the conclusion then...

BE Bearings Vs OEM...

Thinking of getting mine done in a few weeks! 2007 - 70k
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Old 11th August 2018, 04:03 PM   #99
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So whats the conclusion then...

BE Bearings Vs OEM...

Thinking of getting mine done in a few weeks! 2007 - 70k
Like Raif and Ian says - BE!
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Old 11th August 2018, 07:31 PM   #100
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So whats the conclusion then...

BE Bearings Vs OEM...

Thinking of getting mine done in a few weeks! 2007 - 70k
Absolutely definitely oem BMW bearings and bolts with yearly castrol 10w60 oil changes. No question about it.
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