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Old 9th April 2018, 11:32 AM   #1
TouringRob
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Default Car won't start help!!!! SOLVED

***SOLVED*** Fuel pump was open circuit. See later posts for full fix


Hi All,

First big issue with the car

Back ground: few days ago stopped engine in traffic (with key) to listen to something next to us, went to restart. Car started but quickly died, repeated, car started ran lump for a few moments then died. Left for 10s then started, all fine.

Car drives fine, under load and cruising.

Other night, went to cold car - turned key, started and died. Second attempt started and after a few moments of rough running sorted its self, drove home just fine.

This morning - overnight cold engine, first click car started and died and now just cranks over with no sign of life.

I have had INPA in this morning with no stored faults.
I could hear fuel pump relay clicking during INPA tests but swapped with AC relay anyway (same pt.no.) still click. I cannot hear the pump with door open.... are these loud? Should I be able to?

Checked and swapped fuel pump fuse in glove box with out effect (was not visibly blown).

Swapped salmon injector system relay under bonnet - no change. I can hear all injectors click during INPA test.

My car is a touring convert, do these cars ever have more than one fuel pump relay?

Next up is check voltage at pump but I really have to get to work now I would be quite surprised if it is the pump - just because the car drove so well once started and under load/high rpm etc. Obviously not ruling this out.

Is the pump/pump wiring accessible?

Thanks very much
Rob,

Last edited by TouringRob; 16th April 2018 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 9th April 2018, 11:33 AM   #2
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Also did this test in INPA:



Is this fuel pump test or some other pump test? Showing zero current which doesn't look great. Even when trying to crank.

INPA shows injector duration correctly and RPM so do not this this is CPS (no code any way).

Rob,
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Old 9th April 2018, 11:38 AM   #3
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PS - Just to add, I unplugged MAF sensor to no effect.
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Old 9th April 2018, 12:16 PM   #4
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Check the battery voltage when static (engine off) and also when cranking - wonder if it's low then can it not provide enough voltage to drive the pump and the coils etc etc.

I would guess though that this would manifest as a slow crank however. Is it relatively fast or a bit sluggish turning over? Cold weather may have pushed battery too far?

It may be indicative of another fault though, alternator, quiescent drain, Pump fault as you say...

Just a thought, do you know where the fuel filter is? Could it be blocked/been damaged and restricted flow? They're usually under the car roughly where the drivers seat is. if it's hung down and taken a whack?

Last edited by Jimbo25; 9th April 2018 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:17 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo25 View Post
Check the battery voltage when static (engine off) and also when cranking - wonder if it's low then can it not provide enough voltage to drive the pump and the coils etc etc.

I would guess though that this would manifest as a slow crank however. Is it relatively fast or a bit sluggish turning over? Cold weather may have pushed battery too far?

It may be indicative of another fault though, alternator, quiescent drain, Pump fault as you say...

Just a thought, do you know where the fuel filter is? Could it be blocked/been damaged and restricted flow? They're usually under the car roughly where the drivers seat is. if it's hung down and taken a whack?
Thanks for the reply!

Crank voltage is 10.9, static is between 11.9 and 12.1. Turns over quickly and has had quite a bit of abuse this morning!

Good shout on fuel filter - I'll check that out, pretty sure I have a new one in the garage too which would be a touch.

Next up I think is to check to see if I have volts at the pump, if I can't hear the pump running with rear seat out and I have volts at the pump I'm going to assume pump and start the hunt.

Rob,
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:12 PM   #6
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Could well be fuel pump failure. Happened to me, first the relay went bad and torched itself, had that fixed, then the fuse blew, and eventually it was just the fuel pump dying/misbehaving. And probably causing the relay failure and fuse blowing.

Replaced pump, and voila, no more issues.

Was really crap though whilst it was happening, and no error codes or anything, which made it frustrating.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:13 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7DT View Post
Could well be fuel pump failure. Happened to me, first the relay went bad and torched itself, had that fixed, then the fuse blew, and eventually it was just the fuel pump dying/misbehaving. And probably causing the relay failure and fuse blowing.

Replaced pump, and voila, no more issues.

Was really crap though whilst it was happening, and no error codes or anything, which made it frustrating.
I've just been reading another thread that you posted in a while back. What pump did you go for in the end? HRC?

Mentioned the issue to my dad who said its often not clear cut with regard to being fine under load but not starting, he seems to think that when the brushes wear badly the pump may not start reliably. Will check voltage tonight but sods law will mean its the pump rather than a relay!

Rob,

Last edited by TouringRob; 9th April 2018 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:15 PM   #8
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PS - Can you hear your fuel pump running when you turn the ignition on?

Rob,
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TouringRob View Post
I've just been reading another thread that you posted in a while back. What pump did you go for in the end? HRC?

Mentioned the issue to my dad who said its often not clear cut with regard to being fine under load but not starting, he seems to think that when the brushes wear badly the pump may not start reliably. Will check voltage tonight but sods law will mean its the pump rather than a relay!

Rob,
Hi rob I don’t know anything about engines or how to fix cars but I do use and own a **** ton of power tools and from what you’ve discribed your dad could well be right. When they’re in contact (under load in this instance) they are fine but have trouble starting when they’re worn. If it is this it will be a very cheap fix I would assume.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:37 PM   #10
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Quote:
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Hi rob I don’t know anything about engines or how to fix cars but I do use and own a **** ton of power tools and from what you’ve discribed your dad could well be right. When they’re in contact (under load in this instance) they are fine but have trouble starting when they’re worn. If it is this it will be a very cheap fix I would assume.
Hmmm, cheers dude. Thinking you both might be right!

Found some good reviews for the HRC 255 pumps:

http://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/archiv...p/t-35490.html

£56 delivered which seems great compared with the OEM lump which includes pump and cradle etc. Probably order tomorrow assuming I am getting power to the pump its self.

If anyone has any good suggestions for pumps other than OEM please let me know!

Rob,
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TouringRob View Post
I've just been reading another thread that you posted in a while back. What pump did you go for in the end? HRC?

Mentioned the issue to my dad who said its often not clear cut with regard to being fine under load but not starting, he seems to think that when the brushes wear badly the pump may not start reliably. Will check voltage tonight but sods law will mean its the pump rather than a relay!

Rob,
I ordered the HRC plus sleeve etc, but before I received it, the pump completely failed. I ended up forking out for an OEM one, and kept the old pump thinking I'd get round to isntalling the HRC when I had time and then selling on the new OEM. Haven't got round to it, so I have all the bits at home as new, but zero time to actually do it. Project for the summer really now. So I either refurb the old cradle with new pump and install, or sell the assembly on, not sure yet, as the OEM pump is new and behaving.

Reason I ended up having to do that is as the car is my daily, and the pump/sleeve etc wasn't going to arrive in time for a trip i had planned which was unfortunate.
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Old 9th April 2018, 03:03 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7DT View Post
I ordered the HRC plus sleeve etc, but before I received it, the pump completely failed. I ended up forking out for an OEM one, and kept the old pump thinking I'd get round to isntalling the HRC when I had time and then selling on the new OEM. Haven't got round to it, so I have all the bits at home as new, but zero time to actually do it. Project for the summer really now. So I either refurb the old cradle with new pump and install, or sell the assembly on, not sure yet, as the OEM pump is new and behaving.

Reason I ended up having to do that is as the car is my daily, and the pump/sleeve etc wasn't going to arrive in time for a trip i had planned which was unfortunate.
Ahh bugger, yes this is my DD too, I'm unlucky because this is the only car that I own that works (did work) but lucky because my dad is infinity more sensible than me and keeps a spare working car which he doesn't mind loaning out.

Can you hear your OEM pump run when you key on?
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Old 9th April 2018, 03:20 PM   #13
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If you spray wd40 or easy start in the plenum and starts it's a fuelling problem
If it doesn't and no fault found then you may have a faulty sensor giving a plausible answer.
An oscilloscope on the CPS ( or similar) is a good start

Also cranking and no spark or check coil wires means it doesn't know it's cranking
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Old 9th April 2018, 03:30 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E46CoupeM3 View Post
If you spray wd40 or easy start in the plenum and starts it's a fuelling problem
If it doesn't and no fault found then you may have a faulty sensor giving a plausible answer.
An oscilloscope on the CPS ( or similar) is a good start

Also cranking and no spark or check coil wires means it doesn't know it's cranking
Cheers mate, I get RPM (160-170 which is plausible) in INPA while cranking, haven't checked for spark yet, will do once I've checked over pump properly.

Currently cannot hear it running at all when controlling relay in INPA, not sure if its just quiet though.
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Old 9th April 2018, 03:31 PM   #15
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Good call on weezy start though!
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Old 9th April 2018, 04:12 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TouringRob View Post
Ahh bugger, yes this is my DD too, I'm unlucky because this is the only car that I own that works (did work) but lucky because my dad is infinity more sensible than me and keeps a spare working car which he doesn't mind loaning out.

Can you hear your OEM pump run when you key on?
Yes, have to be inside the car/listen carefully though, as the sound gets masked heavily by the SMG pump priming, but you can hear it.
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Old 9th April 2018, 04:24 PM   #17
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Quote:
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Yes, have to be inside the car/listen carefully though, as the sound gets masked heavily by the SMG pump priming, but you can hear it.
Great thanks mate.

Head on back seats - hear nothing. This is with me activating the fuel pump on its own from INPA so no SMG pump to mask.

Just get relay click and then nothing.... will report back later!

Rob,
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Old 9th April 2018, 04:27 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TouringRob View Post
Cheers mate, I get RPM (160-170 which is plausible) in INPA while cranking, haven't checked for spark yet, will do once I've checked over pump properly.

Currently cannot hear it running at all when controlling relay in INPA, not sure if its just quiet though.
If it were mine, after the spraying ....

Pull seat and listen, no joy?
Pull access panel and listen?
No joy check for live with voltmeter?
No joy apply a live and earth

..... but it's not mine so I recommend nothing

Wife's 325 conked out due to burnt out alarm relay - no faults stored
Weirdly same car will crank and not start with a door handle up but EWS was reported as not allowing it to start, even though EWSI should disable crank

Just saying, worth a look
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Old 9th April 2018, 04:48 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E46CoupeM3 View Post
If it were mine, after the spraying ....

Pull seat and listen, no joy?
Pull access panel and listen?
No joy check for live with voltmeter?
No joy apply a live and earth

..... but it's not mine so I recommend nothing

Wife's 325 conked out due to burnt out alarm relay - no faults stored
Weirdly same car will crank and not start with a door handle up but EWS was reported as not allowing it to start, even though EWSI should disable crank

Just saying, worth a look
Pretty much tonights plan

Good info regarding EWS. Will report back!

It took a solid 10mins of googling to find the sodding fuel pump alone, then another 15 to remove glove box etc to pull the relay. The E36 fuse box was 100% better in this regard.
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Old 9th April 2018, 04:50 PM   #20
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Naturally I am now muddying this post.

Any ideas on why this pops up when I select engine control module in INPA?





Can this be fixed?
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